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Old 28th November 2013, 08:43 PM   #1
mozzbo
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Unhappy WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

Well, I've been using WebPlus in all it's incarnations for several years now and it's a fantastic piece of software.

So why did Serif go and spoil it by releasing X7 when it's full of bugs?

I'm totally re-designing a website I have with several hundred pages and thought I'd use X7 to make sure the site is using the cleanest code etc. However, there are so many glitches in X7 I now wish I hadn't bothered!

Here's some things I've come across so far:

Text overflowing in the browser when it's not in WebPlus.

Copy & Paste stops working - it won't paste unless you close down X7 and re-start it.

Placing iframes on the page with 'no scrollbars' selected and the iframe appears with scroll bars!

Text placed accurately over a graphic background appears in a totally different place.

These bugs are serious enough to make X7 not fit for purpose.

I'm sticking with it as I know it will be a fantastic piece of Serif software once the bugs are ironed out, but it's a shame it appears to have been released too soon.

Any ideas when a patch will be released to fix the bugs?
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Old 28th November 2013, 08:52 PM   #2
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Originally Posted by mozzbo View Post
Copy & Paste stops working - it won't paste unless you close down X7 and re-start it.
I haven't come across that one yet. If you can find a reliable recipe, please submit a support ticket.
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Originally Posted by mozzbo View Post
Any ideas when a patch will be released to fix the bugs?
Hopefully, Santa will bring you something you want. I don't suppose it will be much sooner than that.

See Patrick's Recent Post in Community Plus.
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Old 29th November 2013, 02:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

You folks should have insisted that X6 be made right FIRST ... X7 will be another "buggy" fiasco filled with headaches for everyone.

They lied to us about fixing the bugs in the last 3 iterations, why would anyone expect that they were going to get it right this time?

When you keep rewarding Serif for bad behavior, you really can't expect them to change.
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Old 29th November 2013, 02:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Originally Posted by Dijenga View Post
You folks should have insisted that X6 be made right FIRST ... X7 will be another "buggy" fiasco filled with headaches for everyone.

They lied to us about fixing the bugs in the last 3 iterations, why would anyone expect that they were going to get it right this time?

When you keep rewarding Serif for bad behavior, you really can't expect them to change.
I hadn't thought of it like that. fair point though... More like, I was hoping they'd learnt from past experience and made sure their releases were as problem free as possible. They hadn't! Except this time, reading between the lines there was a 'set in stone' release date (probably to catch the Christmas market) which has somewhat backfired as Win 8.1 and IE11 came out at more or less the same time. Plus, and this has been raised before by me, their beta testing doesn't appear to be robust enough.

We do give Serif a lot of goodwill but this release might have tested that somewhat with a lot of users?

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Old 29th November 2013, 03:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

There are additional issues here too:

The IE11 (Windows embedded) component problems (not the browser viewer) are causing problems with other software as well from other publishers.

The additional problem for Serif is it also affects WebPlus X6 (and earlier) to some degree as well.

Microsoft are aware of the issues - and hopefully(?) are working on them as we speak....
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Old 29th November 2013, 04:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dijenga View Post
You folks should have insisted that X6 be made right FIRST ... X7 will be another "buggy" fiasco filled with headaches for everyone.

They lied to us about fixing the bugs in the last 3 iterations, why would anyone expect that they were going to get it right this time?

When you keep rewarding Serif for bad behavior, you really can't expect them to change.
Agreed.

I guess my cynical thoughts say that the non-major X7 bugs will be said to be being fixed in X8. Bugs in other release streams X6, X5 are certainly not being fixed.

I'm just glad I made the move away from Serif for all new projects some time ago now, and never looked back. The move away from Serif was simply due to the fact that bugs were not addressed in a timely manner (if they were addressed at all). If Serif get back on track to produce quality software, then I will be back to being a "current release" Serif customer.

I do have some legacy site that use Serif for maintenance, and I am very very disappointed that existing bugs were not addressed in the releases.

Serif certainly do seem to be going down the path of not listening to their customers.

S
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Old 29th November 2013, 05:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Originally Posted by SEH View Post
... I'm just glad I made the move away from Serif for all new projects some time ago now, and never looked back ...
Out of interest, what are you now using for your new projects?

Paul.
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Old 1st December 2013, 02:02 AM   #8
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Originally Posted by websearcher View Post
Out of interest, what are you now using for your new projects?

Paul.
I have moved away from ALL Serif software simple because of bugs, stability and the lack of movement in sorting the problems.

I now only use Serif for those legacy projects where it is not cost effective to re-do the projects with another tool.

Paul, to answer your question. For page mark-up, I use CS6 Indesign, and for images I use CS6 Photoshop and Illustrator. By going to 3rd party on-line retailers, you can get legit CS6 cheap. Also look around for coupon codes. I ended up paying less than 50% of the rrp.

Contrary to Adobe hype, CS6 is still currently available - even from Adobe themselves (you will have to phone their customer support and 'fight off' the creative cloud sales spiel and insist on CS6 - I know because the firm I am contracting to has just bought a copy of CS6 for themselves some 2 weeks ago). You will find Adobe will charge much more than other on-line retailers unless you are a "valued customer" with a direct channel to an Adobe rep (in a similar vein to the Apple sales rep scheme where my daughter picked up an iMac for 60% of Apple retail by going direct to a "valued customer" sales rep within Apple itself).

For new web projects, I am currently, in the main using Netobjects Fusion 2013. Although I have had a couple of crashes with NOF, it has never once corrupted a project file.

Again, I got NOF 2013 really cheap. I initially got the free NOF Essentials. Used it for 5 or so days. Went to the "upgrade now" (within the app) which gave me a price for NOF 2013 - about 60% of the retail price shown on the NOF web site. I then found a coupon code via an on-line search, (I love coupon codes) and used that code to get an additional 60% off via NOF's own site - getting 60% off from a 60% off offer!

I paid around US $30 dollars for NOF 2013, but I opted to pay an extra $12 for a backup CD.

I also use CoffeeCup HTML Editor (and their other tools too) for some projects.

I also have Dreamweaver, but I am still picking up the on the learning curve and will be a while before I feel that I am competent enough with the tool for building pro websites.

Besides the problems of Serif bugs and having to remember those "workarounds and things to avoid doing", I have found that simple backing up WP6 projects just before "making an edit" was not enough to protect me (and this is common to other Serif progs too). I have found that problems creep into the project files themselves, silently over time, until the point where you make a change in WP and get a crash. Rolling back the project one version and making the same edit often resulted with the same crash. I found that I had to roll back several version before the project file became stable again. This is one of the reasons why different people are getting different types of crashes, seemingly at random. The problem is that the project file slowly becomes corrupt during use, and the exact corruption is a little different for everybody depending on what they have been doing, eventually resulting in a project file that is unstable.

So if you do something, get a crash, and you still get a crash after a roll-back, try rolling back three or more versions and beyond, to see if you can get to a stable point.

As a general hint for all; if there are a lot of changes in-between roll-backs, see if there is anything you can save as an asset from the latest (unstable project) version for use in a rolled-back project. This has saved my behind several times, but it also a pain the the behind having to do this in the first place.

I have spoken directly with some of the tech people regarding some of the issues I have found, and I have talked through some examples of how to produce demonstrable and incremental project file corruption over a set sequence of operations. The techs agreed that there seemed to be an issue, but overall just went away scratching their heads to investigate further. That was some time ago now, probably around mid 2012. I've shown how the project gets to a point where it can be made to crash (almost on demand) and that rolling back one or two project file saves will still cause the same crash, but roll back three (or beyond) save files can usually get to a point the problem causing the crash has gone away. There is an accumulative problem with the project file and this can be viewed by making changes, saving the project as separate files (between each change) and then "diff"ing the project files to show the unexpected changes creeping into the project file. Sorry for the tech analysis - I worked as a C / C++ contractor (including spending many years writing low-level library code) for some 15+ years. I'll spare you the additional details of my other finds of memory leaks, poor error handling code and the like. I spent some time explaining the details of problems I discovered to people in the development team, but as far as I know, nothing was changed in the WP X6 release stream to sort these problems - doh.

This was for X6, I have no idea about X7 as I am not going down this route. I refuse to pay for software that looses me time and money. Every crash, corrupted project, revert and redo of work costs me time, hence money. My current range of Serif software is the very last I am prepared to buy until Serif get the problems sorted. I have been a loyal Serif customer (up until the very recent releases I have been buying the full suite of progs for more longer than I care to recall, and have automatically upgraded with each new release). I have been using Serif software for many years, back to even before the "X" version releases. However, the quality, stability and bug-fix roll-out has seriously deteriorated over each release. Things noticeably deteriorated around the X2 or X3 release streams.

I used to say that if Serif sorted the problems out, I'd be back to using their products in an instant. However, now that I have made the migration to other tools, I don't think that it will be cost effective for me to revert back to using Serif tools. My hand was forced to move away from Serif tools essentially by Serif themselves due to the bugs and crash problems. It was not so much of a choice, but a necessity.

Once a crash (resulting in loss of work, having to revert back to a stable backup, having to redo the lost delta of work) effectively costs me more than the purchase price of the program, it's time to move on.

I used to see Serif software as good value for money, but it seems the company business plan is steering their software towards the low-end budget market.

Moreover, the complacency shown to their existing customer base is not good at all.


S.
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Old 1st December 2013, 03:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

Quote:
I now only use Serif for those legacy projects where it is not cost effective to re-do the projects with another tool.
From the problems that you have had, I understand completely.

Quote:
For new web projects, I am currently, in the main using Netobjects Fusion 2013. Although I have had a couple of crashes with NOF, it has never once corrupted a project file.
Fascinating. Because that was the software that I moved away from (it was Version 8 and then 11 though!) and went to WebPlus! I think many others did the same thing. However, I have looked with interest when they've emailed me about the latest couple of releases as it seems to have matured considerably.

Quote:
So if you do something, get a crash, and you still get a crash after a roll-back, try rolling back three or more versions and beyond, to see if you can get to a stable point.
I dread to even contemplate having to do that! Luckily, I've not had crashes or corruption as you encountered. The only time Webplus failed on me was when I tried amending fonts within a Table by the usual route instead of going via the Table/Font option.

Quote:
I used to see Serif software as good value for money, but it seems the company business plan is steering their software towards the low-end budget market.
Well, it is certainly PRICED at the budget end and MARKETED as a tool that "complete beginners can use"! BUT, it's also used by quite a few extremely knowledgeable and experienced web designers, as evidenced by those who help others so generously within this forum.

Regards,

Paul.
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Old 1st December 2013, 05:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

Hiya there

Sadly I have to add my voice to this thread, the view expressed above are exactly my own. I got to Drawplus X5 and Webplus X5 and PhotPlus X4 to realise that 'chasing' upgrades wasn't going to improve my experience.

I too have withdrawn from Serif products when upgrading, I managed to get a legit Photoshop7 (yes 7) which despite being many years old works far better than any serif offering. I have gone from WebPlus to Expression Web 4 (now free from Microsoft) I am still unsure what to do with DrawPlus X5 as I rarely use it.. it stays.. for now, but will not be upgraded.

It was DrawPlus that was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak, it was so pathetically and ridiculously buggy from the word go, and took a few patches just to make it semi stable..

To put it simply.. i just got tired of dealing with 'workarounds, and 'must not do's' !!

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Old 1st December 2013, 11:11 AM   #11
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

I thought i would see what happens when i load a wpp built in X6 into X7 then publish and there are a few errors as you can see in the images, interestingly though the website validates with only 5 errors when published in X7 were as it has 19 errors when published in X6, anyway have a look at just one page in the images and you will see some errors i have highlighted the errors in yellow..
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Old 1st December 2013, 12:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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... have a look at just one page in the images and you will see some errors i have highlighted the errors in yellow..
To me, the most annoying change is that the ticks and crosses now don't line up with the text, thus making it quite confusing to the visitor.

Paul.
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Old 1st December 2013, 04:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

Installed x7 a few hours ago, but my laptop (i7 8GB) keeps crashing.
Serveral restarts: no effect..
quickly back to x6 :-(
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Old 1st December 2013, 11:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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For new web projects, I am currently, in the main using Netobjects Fusion 2013. Although I have had a couple of crashes with NOF, it has never once corrupted a project file.
I've just had a look at the four reviews on Amazon.com and a few other comments on the web and, to my mind, you've been lucky!

Paul.
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Old 1st December 2013, 11:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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I've just had a look at the four reviews on Amazon.com and a few other comments on the web and, to my mind, you've been lucky!
I used NOF Fusion for years, and still use version XII for my Dictionary of Pali Proper Names site, because there's no way I am going to import nearly 4,000 pages into WebPlus and check it all again.

NOF crashes fairly frequently, but so far it always recovered using a version of the site that was saved before it crashed. It may lose some work when it crashes, but not much.
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Old 2nd December 2013, 12:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

seriously you need to rewrite your app or change your developer teams
I started with WebPlus x5 site with over 250 pages now I'm on WebPlus x7 and still the same problem crash bug still the same problem unsolved
whenever I open WebPlus I can not add three pages without missing resources and when I fix it. other problems appear

unfortunately, i have many pages and no enough time to start from beginning
i'm stuck here but advice, stay away from this soft
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Old 2nd December 2013, 03:47 PM   #17
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Originally Posted by websearcher View Post
I've just had a look at the four reviews on Amazon.com and a few other comments on the web and, to my mind, you've been lucky!

Paul.
Paul: Hmm, so you base an opinion on NOF2013 after reading four reviews on Amazon.

I own WPX6 and exercised most of it's features.

I also own NOF2013 and have already exercised it hard and used most of it's features. I have found that it does what it says on the box.

As I said, I have had a handful of NOF2013 crashes. So far, no project corruption, no loss of work and I have worked it quite hard.

I cannot say the same for WPX6, which for me, was too unstable to use for anything but glorified hobby work.

My experience is that each new release of WP is on a downward spiral of lower quality and stability. That is my personal opinion based on my experience of using Serif products over many a long year.

I am prepared to "tell it as it is" based on my personal hands on experience. If I was having problems with NOF2013 I would quite happily stand up and reveal all, but so far, there is nothing to say. It's been good for me.

I have never experienced some of the problems reported in WPX6 that have been reported by others. However, for the problems I did experience, all I can say is that they were a pain in the ***, reported to "he who shall not be named" and seemingly not going to be fixed - if they are being fixed, then I would expect a X6 patch.

Paul, as a matter of interest, have you looked at the WPX7 reviews on Amazon? Care to share what they say?

S
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Old 2nd December 2013, 04:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Paul: Hmm, so you base an opinion on NOF2013 after reading four reviews on Amazon.
Of course not ... I was simply looking for reviews out of idle interest. Apart from those four on Amazon.com, the only others that I found were journalist's blurbs.
If you're happy with NOF then I'm pleased for you but I have to say that I'll probably stick with X6 for the moment (I've got X7 in order to look at the new features but don't intend to upgrade any of my current sites until the next update), especially as there is this terrific forum to fall back on if problems arise.

Quote:
Paul, as a matter of interest, have you looked at the WPX7 reviews on Amazon? Care to share what they say?
Of course I'll share EVERYTHING that I found on Amazon.com and on Amazon.co.uk. Here it is:

Paul.
PS: That was a feeble joke - there are no reviews yet because I'd guess that Serif will not sell it via Amazon until the current problems have been sorted out. For the moment I presume that the only people with X7 are X6 users!
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Old 2nd December 2013, 05:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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I started with WebPlus x5 site with over 250 pages now I'm on WebPlus x7 and still the same problem crash bug still the same problem unsolved
whenever I open WebPlus I can not add three pages without missing resources and when I fix it. other problems appear
unfortunately, i have many pages and no enough time to start from beginning
Did you send Serif an X5 problem report? Have you done so for X7? The size of the site is indeed very large.

Out of interest, when you say "missing resources" what are they?

Paul.
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Old 2nd December 2013, 06:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: WebPlus X7 Unusable due to Bugs!!

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Originally Posted by cailops View Post
seriously you need to rewrite your app or change your developer teams
I started with WebPlus x5 site with over 250 pages now I'm on WebPlus x7 and still the same problem crash bug still the same problem unsolved
whenever I open WebPlus I can not add three pages without missing resources and when I fix it. other problems appear

unfortunately, i have many pages and no enough time to start from beginning
i'm stuck here but advice, stay away from this soft
My site, about the history of a shipping company http://www.bandcstaffregister.co.uk developed with X5 to start but most now in X6 has about 2500 pages.
I did have troubles with it crashing but I found that it conflicts with the automatic program management built into AVG Internet Security. Having now taking it outside of AVG management the software is very stable. I never get "missing resources".
I do have X7 but the chances of me using it on my present site are ZERO. I have tried it once using a backup copy and it crashed as soon as I tried to save it.

It might be worthwhile if you examine the way your internet security interacts with WebPlus
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