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Old 31st August 2013, 04:40 AM   #1
Diphenhydramine
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Default Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

DISCLAIMER: other than having bought and/or used the products/libraries which I discuss, I have no relationship whatsoever, either directly or indirectly, with anyone or any of the entities producing these products/libraries. These are my own opinions and I make no warranties either express or implied. This is me, sharing.


Before Web application programming there was desktop application programming. Does anybody remember those good old days? How easy, and even fun, programming was then. Tools like Visual Basic and Delphi (and many others) operated through a visual metaphor and WYSIWYG was the order of the day. You drug "components", both visual and nonvisual, onto a "form", fiddled with a few properties and you're off to the races with a working application with no compromises. Even database access was granted by virtue of a few property settings in a database access component or two. And 99% of the code that you wrote actually had to do with the guts of the functionality of your application and not endless faffing about with infrastructure.

And then the Internet happened and we had to become Web application programmers and the fun was over. Programming became about consuming metric tons of text in arbitrarily bizarre configurations: HTML, XML, XSLT, JSON, SOAP, and 2 dozen scripting languages. WYSIWYG programming with simple code-behind was gone forever.

Years and years have passed and Web application programming tools are still relatively primitive compared to their now ancient desktop programming counterparts. The reasons for the difference in the experience of programming between web applications programming and desktop applications programming are largely technical. The nature of web application programming with its very loose coupling of toolsets and languages and perpetually slippery target environments and its tiresome text-for-everything paradigm seems to have a tendency to defy the creation of sophisticated development tools. And the fact that no 2 browsers work the same is the manure on the cake.

At this point I begin to doubt web application tools will ever evolve to the sophisticated levels of their ancient desktop application ancestors.

But I have cobbled together a little pile of tools that, together, do a surprisingly good job of creating an unreasonable facsimile of a "more or less" semi-hemi-demi-quasi WYSIWYG programming experience, while separating the user interface parts and code-behind parts as a side benefit. Again, the Internet, composed mostly of warts and pimples as it is, precludes a Cadillac experience. But I'm pretty happy with it and I'm hard to please.

WORKING PHILOSOPHY:

I need to be able to develop pretty much any kind of "traditional" Web application that I can imagine on a shoestring budget for tools (ideally less than $500) and with very few compromises in terms of capability and the support of rapid application development. All the tools should intrinsically tend to reduce the volume of background insanity that is the Internet in terms of the variability of browser implementations. Most of the applications that I will create will be database-oriented, but I want to be able to develop webpages that AREN'T database-oriented as well, so no CRUD (create, read, update, delete) generators. The vast majority of code that I'm willing to write needs to be centered around the actual application functionality and not interface and infrastructure reinventions of the wheel with each application. I want a lot of the programming experience to feel like Delphi or Visual Basic.

INGREDIENTS:

1. WebPlus from Serif
2. HTML5 Builder from Embarcadero
3. jQuery
4. jquery.inputmask (on GitHub)
5. PHP regular expressions on the server
6. "Learning jQuery Fourth Edition" book by Jonathan Chaffer, Karl Swedberg
7. "Application Development with HTML5 Builder" book by Graeme Chandler
8. Uniform Server, A lightweight mobile WAMP Server
9. Toad Data Modeler from Dell

INGREDIENTS DETAIL:

WebPlus from Serif - generally responsible for the "look and feel" elements of my applications. WebPlus, better than any of the other static webpage editing tools I've personally encountered, tames the variability of the different browser implementations, gives a better (though not perfect; but perfect probably isn't possible given the Internet as it is) WYSIWYG editing experience while still allowing you to get your grimy fingers all over the nitty-gritty HTML details if you have to. The price you pay for its capabilities is its exclusive focus on absolute positioning; you can mitigate this somewhat with careful and heavy use of tables. And also fortunately, most of the browsers nowadays to a pretty good job of absolute positioning especially through CSS.
HTML5 Builder from Embarcadero - a RAD PHP/JavaScript/HTML5/mobile development environment. It can create many different varieties of applications with a focus on HTML 5 hybrid applications. I only use it for traditional, Web-server-based PHP applications. Not bad for only $299. And there's a free trial. Like its predecessor, you can think of HTML5 Builder as a sort of VB-like or Delphi-like, component oriented, visual-metaphor-driven RAD development environment for PHP (and other stuff I don't use...).
jQuery - this one needs no introduction. If YOU don't know it, it's long overdue for you. Get busy. It ain't that tough. If you know CSS you pretty much already know this.
jquery.inputmask (on GitHub) - a very powerful input masking plug-in for jQuery. Painless, set-and-forget.
PHP regular expressions on the server - for the all-important input validation. I'd like to use a PHP validation library but the only one that I like has too many conflicts in my set up; that was kind of a disappointment.
"Learning jQuery Fourth Edition" book by Jonathan Chaffer, Karl Swedberg - my favorite book on jQuery. In my opinion, if you can't learn it from this book, you can't learn it. Time to go flip burgers.
"Application Development with HTML5 Builder" book by Graeme Chandler - THE book on HTML5 Builder. No... seriously...THE BOOK. There aren't any others. Good thing this is a pretty good book. It's not perfect and I have found a few things missing from it, but getting it is absolutely essential. HTML5 Builder looks rather terrifying and impenetrable without it, but actually very straightforward and easy to understand once you go through the book. Especially good at covering little pitfalls and gotchas that will completely stop you cold if you don't have the book.
Uniform Server, A lightweight mobile WAMP Server - in my opinion, proper development requires the ability to do your programming anytime, anywhere, with all your dollies and dishes at hand. Uniform Server gives you a nice Web server, PHP, and MySQL in a nice, unzip-it-and-you're-done package. Right-click on the initial executable, click run as administrator, and you're off to the races. There never was a simpler, more convenient, more stable and painless local runtime Web server with PHP and MySQL environment. All free.
Toad Data Modeler from Dell - this one is optional. I like creating my databases formally, with UML diagrams and explicit cardinality and all that computer science-y goop. And all the nasty referential integrity done FOR me so I don't have to. All by itself it's $500, so you may want to give this one a pass. There is a freebie version, which is actually the one that I use because my database needs are not ALL that complex, but it gets crabby and expires every now and then which can be very tiresome.

LEARNING CURVES:

For a couple of these tools (WebPlus, Toad Data Modeler) there are tons of online videos you can watch for free that get your head in the right place and off the ground and out of your... well, you know.

For HTML5 Builder, don't even THINK about trying it without getting the book I've mentioned. If you have any experience with VB or Delphi or similar RAD tool, that experience together with this book will make working with HTML5 Builder a cakewalk with respect to Web application building.

For jQuery, read the book I have listed. If you're using WebPlus, you probably know a little something about CSS, and jQuery and CSS are cut from the same cloth with the same selector syntax. If you want to make your apps jump and twitch and accordion and do all sorts of fun stuff, you have to fiddle with the DOM, that's all there is to it. Trying to do that directly is like trying to feed yourself by eating 1 poppy seed at a time by hand. But with jQuery, it's a real pleasure and the payback for time invested is nothing less than staggering. Plus it gives you functionality I'm not sure would be attainable any other way.

For jquery.inputmask (on GitHub) you pretty much just have to read the information available for it on GitHub. But once you know jQuery, it's just a variation on exactly the same theme and then user input filtering/masking on the browser becomes something you never have to worry about again.

For PHP regular expressions on the server I pretty much don't have anything to offer except research on the Internet. I've had pretty good luck with the stuff I've read at http://www.phpjabbers.com/php-valida...ion-php27.html . (Be SURE to read about PHP regular expressions in the USAGE section below for some important reservations).
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Old 31st August 2013, 04:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 2

Uniform Server, A lightweight mobile WAMP Server - just read the documentation on the same website where you get Uniform Server. It really is an unzip-into-a-directory-and-go kind of thing. Most of the time, most people won't have any trouble with it. You just right-click on "run as executable" in your file browser in the appropriate directory, select run as administrator from the pop-up context menu, and off you go. Your biggest chance of horrible collisions are around port usage because everything in such an environment uses TCP/IP ports and if a firewall or other application has those ports plugged up you're going to have to sort it out. So it'll either be no pain at all or there will be a lot of cursing.

USAGE:

WebPlus from Serif & HTML5 Builder from Embarcadero - I've put these 2 together in this usage section because it's how these 2 packages interoperate so wonderfully that most of the magic happens in my "development environment".

HTML5 Builder from Embarcadero is cut from the same cloth and comes from the same philosophical lineage as Delphi. It pretty much uses exactly the same metaphor as Delphi (and similar visually oriented tools) in terms of how it interacts with you, the programmer. You work with forms and you drag components (database components, single line edits, labels, radio buttons, checkboxes, etc.) onto the forms. You set properties on the components and you write event code behind them in both JavaScript and PHP depending on where you want/need the event to fire. Upon "deployment", the stand-in for compilation for a scripting tool such as this, it generates the JavaScript, PHP and HTML to implement your "forms". You upload the resultant output to your Web server along with the custom-generated set of libraries necessary to support the components that you've used. It knows all about accessing and working with databases of several different kinds. I use it with MySQL. It does parameterized queries completely painlessly, thereby completely obviating SQL injection attacks (or so I'm told; you know how that goes...).

Each component that you use has a unique name that you give it when you put it on the form. This name shows up all over the place in terms of the generated output, and especially noteworthy is that this name constitutes the HTML ID that represents that component on the webpage. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU REMEMBER THIS POINT FOR LATER.

Again, my use of HTML5 Builder is solely as a web application generator. It does a lot of other stuff that I'm not covering here; I'm actually only touching on a small part of what it can do.

So far, the only really huge gotcha that I've experienced with HTML5 Builder is that it doesn't support PHP namespaces. This can make the use of some third-party PHP libraries impossible because so many of them depend on namespaces nowadays. I don't believe this was intentional; I think it's a bug.

As far as WebPlus is concerned, given the context of this writing, I'm going to assume you're pretty familiar with it. You know what WebPlus does and how it does it, and how it goes a long way towards concealing the nasty details of static webpage creation and does so much to smooth out all the differences between the browsers.

Now here's the most important bit of this entire posting. Squint up your eyes a bit and when you think of WebPlus, think "is responsible for handling most of the user interface portion". And when you think of HTML5 Builder, think "handles all of the code-behind bits".

The notion of separating the user interface parts from the coding parts shouldn't be new to any programmers reading this. Delphi did it, Visual Basic did it, the whole MVC ideology is all about separating interface from database from business logic, and so on. What we're doing here is basically the same thing, nothing more nor less.

WebPlus is very good at giving us a draggy-droppy experience in creating user interfaces, otherwise known as a static webpage. It has lots of drawing tools and button bar creators and all sorts of other user interface trickery, while at the same time it allows you relatively fine-grained access to the HTML behind the scenes if you absolutely, positively HAVE to put something exactly THERE. But tragically, it doesn't do coding. It's not a programming tool. No database lookups with WebPlus.

HTML5 Builder is a very good programming tool, with debuggers and all sorts of good programming stuff, but it's definitely not something that a web designer would feel overly comfortable doing the artsy stuff with. And if you wanted to put the table exactly THERE on the page and specifically put something in exactly THAT CELL... I'm not even sure you could do that.

But here's the interesting part. HTML5 Builder is capable of directly CONSUMING the output HTML pages generated by WebPlus and using them as templates to create its output pages at PAGE RENDER TIME. Remember that all the visual components (single line edits, buttons, checkboxes, panels, repeating database sections, and on and on) that you create in HTML5 Builder have their own IDs? All you do is go through your webpages in WebPlus and sprinkle tags with those IDs in the "Attach HTML" code blocks. The PHP code that HTML5 Builder generates reads the WebPlus HTML pages and inserts the necessary code every place it finds those tags with the appropriate IDs on your webpages. All of your PHP and JavaScript code is then fully attached to your WebPlus HTML pages, voilà. For those of you who already have an extensive technical background, it essentially is using WebPlus HTML pages as Smarty templates.

You can literally have one person work on your look and feel of your webpages with WebPlus, and have your completely separate programmer do all the coding work behind-the-scenes, and it all comes together beautifully at the last second right before the page renders.

And it doesn't have to be a one-to-one correspondence between HTML pages and PHP pages because the PHP pages can decide which HTML pages they want to use as templates on the fly. If you want, one giant and very intelligent PHP page can generate all your different output pages simply by picking different HTML front-end pages as it needs them. Or not.

jQuery - jQuery comes automatically with HTML5 Builder. If you want to make your pages jump and dance and do all sorts of things dynamically within the user's browser, there's just no substitute for jQuery. If you diligently create all your webpages so they don't need JavaScript and "degrade gracefully"... well, more power to you. JavaScript is not Java, and I am not personally tolerant of the same prejudices against JavaScript that I am against Java. Turn off Java all you like, but turn off JavaScript and you may as well not bother coming to my websites. I often have core functionality in JavaScript. JavaScript and jQuery also bring easy Ajax capabilities (which HTML5 Builder also does intrinsically) and does a stellar job at concealing individual browser idiocies. I'm aware that JavaScript has certain vulnerabilities and that some people are sensitive to that fact. But as far as I can tell every single Internet technology has vulnerabilities and it's only a matter of degree; Internet technology and "vulnerability" are practically synonyms. Where Java is simply beyond the pale, JavaScript is about as good as it gets.

jquery.inputmask (on GitHub) - while one cannot rely upon input masking as a security measure when it runs on the browser, it certainly makes life easier for people working with your webpages and making sure that they get their input nominally correct. My basic philosophy is to have fairly sophisticated user-facing input validation on the browser side with nice error messages and handholding and masking fields and suchlike, and on the server a brutal cookie-cutter approach that simply rejects any unacceptable input when the problem is with format. I'd go so far as to assume that some kind of attack is happening if the input format is incorrect because incorrectly formatted data shouldn't be able to get past my user facing masks; therefore probably something fishy is going on. However, if a user name, for example, is properly formatted but is already in use, that's a different story. I differentiate between improper formatting and healthy-but-unusable data.

PHP regular expressions on the server - this is how I do my input validation on the server side, the cookie-cutter approach I talked about. I'm pretty narrow about what I'll allow for input to keep the regular expressions I have to use simple to avoid accidentally allowing stinky input from getting through a poorly thought out regular expression. Of all the aspects of my coding, even though this one is one of the most important from a security standpoint, I'm the least comfortable with it. I have been told there are risks associated with using regular expressions as input filters but I haven't been able to really find out what they are beyond the notion that regular expressions can get complex quickly leading to mistakes that permit bad data to get through. The PHP input filtering library I would like to use is unavailable to me because of the namespace bug with HTML5 Builder. Lastly, in those rare cases where I absolutely MUST do something detestable, like accept HTML, I use HTML Purifier from http://htmlpurifier.org/.

And there you have it.

As if anyone will actually read all of this.
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Old 31st August 2013, 10:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

WOW!

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Old 31st August 2013, 08:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

'Cough Cough'
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Old 31st August 2013, 08:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Well, "wow" I understood and rather liked.

"Cough cough"...I have NO idea what that means but it doesn't sound good.
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Old 31st August 2013, 08:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diphenhydramine View Post
Well, "wow" I understood and rather liked.

"Cough cough"...I have NO idea what that means but it doesn't sound good.
...which reminds me I need to take an antihistamine tab.
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Old 31st August 2013, 09:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjh View Post
...which reminds me I need to take an antihistamine tab.
See, you won't get good stuff like this over at Comm+. Robby the bobby would soon be busy in the database with his eraser and Tippex.
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Old 31st August 2013, 09:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

"As if anyone will actually read all of this." I did, I did. Now with all the time invested to learn all that stuff and you also spent how long to write it all down for just a few people to read and even fewer to understand it. What did you want to happen? Do you have any work to show what all that does?
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Old 31st August 2013, 10:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Now with all the time invested to learn all that stuff and you also spent how long to write it all down for just a few people to read and even fewer to understand it. What did you want to happen? Do you have any work to show what all that does?
Definitely not the sort of questions I expected to receive. Given the obviously hostile nature of your questions, I doubt there's going to be anything I can say that will satisfy, but I guess I'm obliged to try.

As far as the time invested to "learn all that stuff", any web application programmer at random is going to know most of it already as an obligatory part of BEING a web application programmer. UML, PHP, JavaScript and the jQuery library for it, regular expressions in general, those are all things one might reasonably expect hundreds of thousands of web application programmers to already know, or else they pretty much can't BE web applications programmers. In the PHP marketplace there are alternatives like Java server pages and VBScript and suchlike, but it's conceptually the same.

jquery.inputmask is just a plug-in for jQuery. Once you know JavaScript and jQuery, jquery.inputmask is about a half-hour investment.

For a web application programmer, this pretty much leaves WebPlus and HTML5 Builder. I don't consider either of those particularly onerous to learn especially with the aids I have mentioned. Everybody here is going to be more or less familiar with WebPlus. And if you have any exposure to VB or Delphi, HTML5 Builder, with the book, isn't going to present any special challenges.

On the face of it, being a web applications programmer is a learning-investment-heavy occupation. If you object to it than go away; there isn't going to be anything in this post that will appeal to you and you're probably not on your way to being a web applications programmer.

What did I want to happen? For other people to benefit from my experiences in trying to cobble together a fairly RAD web applications programming environment, which doesn't really exist outside of this suggestion, as far as I know. Why does anybody work in open source or write programming libraries and give them away on GitHub, or post any other "how to" information about programming? For the benefit of mankind, I suppose. The contentious nature of your question gives me the impression you somehow find that offensive. If you didn't like this post, permit me to remind you that you are not obliged to read it. I was careful to give it a title that I believed would only be appealing and attractive to people interested in the subject matter contained herein.

Do I have any work to show what all that does? Yes, but it's behind a membership wall belonging to the people I wrote for. If you're actually interested in seeing what it can do (which the manner of your questions doesn't really imply) I have an idea about how it might be demonstrated without you having to do anything more than knock out a couple of quick web pages in WebPlus. If you're interested let me know.
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Old 1st September 2013, 02:45 AM   #10
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diphenhydramine View Post
Definitely not the sort of questions I expected to receive. Given the obviously hostile nature of your questions, I doubt there's going to be anything I can say that will satisfy, but I guess I'm obliged to try.
Whoa, there. You got me all wrong. I was just asking some questions to find out where your coming from and going to. NO disrespect intended at all. I'm just starting a huge project (not the one I've been asking all my questions about) that my friend and I've started, he's and you are way above my comprehension level when it gets into the details. Anyways I sent him a copy of the URL to your post on this subject. We can talk out of the forum on this project.

I'm impressed.

Wayne
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Old 1st September 2013, 07:23 AM   #11
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diphenhydramine View Post
Definitely not the sort of questions I expected to receive. Given the obviously hostile nature of your questions, I doubt there's going to be anything I can say that will satisfy, but I guess I'm obliged to try.
I dont think that asking for an example of 'new' techniques interwoven with Webplus is being hostile. Its common to provide an aid or a small example so that forum users have a starting point. I touched on the HTML5 forms back in the days of X4 and provided a demo and how to use sheet. In fact it's still in my signature below. There are many on this forum that do the same thing. None of this is obligatory, just helpful.

Joe
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Old 1st September 2013, 07:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

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I dont think that asking for an example of 'new' techniques interwoven with Webplus is being hostile. Its common to provide an aid or a small example so that forum users have a starting point. I touched on the HTML5 forms back in the days of X4 and provided a demo and how to use sheet. In fact it's still in my signature below. There are many on this forum that do the same thing. None of this is obligatory, just helpful.

Joe
Exactly Joe, as many here are not pro developers they would have no idea what the OP was on about in those two posts. Without practical demonstrations a lot of this just remains a closed book to them.
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Old 1st September 2013, 09:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Joe, Nigel:

I have just enough love for my fellow man to try to do something "community minded". That love diminishes quickly when I feel called upon to defend myself.

Quote:
I dont think that asking for an example of 'new' techniques interwoven with Webplus is being hostile. Its common to provide an aid or a small example so that forum users have a starting point. I touched on the HTML5 forms back in the days of X4 and provided a demo and how to use sheet.
Quote:
Exactly Joe, as many here are not pro developers they would have no idea what the OP was on about in those two posts. Without practical demonstrations a lot of this just remains a closed book to them.
1. The hostility I was referring to had NOTHING to do with asking for a demonstration. Asserting this makes it clear you didn't read the entire exchange before jumping to this unwarranted conclusion. I specifically said:

Quote:
If you're actually interested in seeing what it can do (which the manner of your questions doesn't really imply) I have an idea about how it might be demonstrated without you having to do anything more than knock out a couple of quick web pages in WebPlus. If you're interested let me know.
2. My comments regarding hostility had to do with this:

Quote:
Now with all the time invested to learn all that stuff and you also spent how long to write it all down for just a few people to read and even fewer to understand it. What did you want to happen?
3. WayneC subsequently came on and said he "meant no disrespect" and actually was interested in what he was reading, although he also said "I was just asking some questions to find out where your coming from and going to". While I'm accepting this as a big misunderstanding, or me being too sensitive, why do I have explain "where I'm coming from"? In the VERY FIRST LINES OF MY INITIAL POST I said "This is me, sharing." Why am I called upon to have a more detailed "motive"?

My post was long, but it's a big subject. I can't do it in 10 words or less. But if you're going to critique someone's posts OR their motives, you really do need to read the whole thing to make sure your objections are valid. Unless you LIKE having stooopid arguments like THIS instead of technical discussions.

Frankly, I had a demo in mind before I posted, but my notion of an appropriate demo requires "a member from the audience". In MY opinion, there are TWO stellar elements to this approach. One is that it permits something akin to RAD development for web apps. But secondly, and equally importantly, it allows a big separation between the interface (static web pages) and the code (PHP et al.).

I want someone else from the WebPlus community, with a few simple directions from me, to doctor up a couple of WebPlus pages, embed the resources, zip up the WPP file and I will use THAT work and add dynamic PHP data from a MySQL database to it, put it online, and everybody can look at it.

This, IMO, would effectively demonstrate BOTH the ease of the approach AND how much you can separate out the underlying work.

MY idea, so MY demo approach.

Any more having to explain myself (other than all the TECH questions you want, fire away) and you all can just b___er off. This whole thing has gone Kafka-esque and redonkulous and I'm beginning to wonder what the he__ I was thinking.

S.
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Old 1st September 2013, 09:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Here's my pennyworth:

First of all, IMO, Serif webplusX6 etc is for guys who struggle with coding and are more likely to be more comfortable with the design of websites?

A lot of what you posted was totally new to my ears, but an interesting read, but again, only a confirmation of the gap between the extent of my website-making-knowledge, and I presume a guy who does it professionally?

So, you've given us some good information, and an insight into what web-designing can be. But as with wordpress et al, web-design doesn't have to be totally in the hands of programmers?

Why don't you back up your post with showing us a website that shows how better your work is than ours? Maybe then we can judge if this is all true or not?

But thanks for your post.
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Old 1st September 2013, 09:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Why don't you back up your post with showing us a website that shows how better your work is than ours?
"How better...your work is...than ours?"

Wow. THAT'S the takeaway? THAT'S the message that got through?

Ok. Never mind. Sorry I wasted everyone's time. Clearly I picked the WRONG venue to come out with this one.
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Old 1st September 2013, 10:07 AM   #16
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

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Originally Posted by Diphenhydramine View Post
"How better...your work is...than ours?"

Wow. THAT'S the takeaway? THAT'S the message that got through?

Ok. Never mind. Sorry I wasted everyone's time. Clearly I picked the WRONG venue to come out with this one.
I think the thread has taken an unfortunate turn, but I do sympathise with some of the comments. I am one of those who finds it difficult to visualise how things work in web design without concrete examples, so a few visuals would have enticed me to read your posts in full, but I am afraid I was lost quite early on. This is why software user guides are packed full of images, and not just long bodies of text. I am sorry that you are offended by some reactions, but you may get more interest in and understanding of your proposals by offering some sort of visual stimulus. Just a thought ...
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Old 1st September 2013, 10:26 AM   #17
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Just to illustrate my point:

A friend spent quite some time, possibly months coding a website, and encouraged me to have a look. I looked and my first thought was: "I could have done better in an hour with webplus".

Yet this site was totally "coded" and I'm sure he was a great programmer. But, he had missed the point. The point is that no matter what is "behind" the website, be it webplus or "coding", the viewer couldn't care less.

Just like we can all immediately judge a singer by their voice and be turned away or brought to tears with joy! A website is all about "design" and "visuals" and all the "coding" in the world won't make the viewer any more impressed.

My point to you was simply that if your "coding" was better, then show me!

So, stop being hurt, and just show me. I said I was grateful to you for your post.
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Old 1st September 2013, 10:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

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Originally Posted by Diphenhydramine View Post
"How better...your work is...than ours?"

Wow. THAT'S the takeaway? THAT'S the message that got through?
Well, it's certainly not the message I picked up. Results aren't necessarily "better" because of the method of production. It's all about fitness for purpose, and efficiency for the producer. Hey, maybe having a bit of fun along the way, too.

I did read through your posts - most of what you talk about is familiar to me, aside from HTML5 Builder, which I've taken a look at. It looks good, but it's more than I would want to spend.

In the (not many) sites I develop for other people, I always use PHP/MySQL and almost always some JQuery. I can't fulfil the needs of the site without those things.

Maybe that's because I do approach it as more of a web application than as a design project. As a result I find WP too limiting, so I am interested in your thoughts on how you've addressed the limitations with that combination of tools.

Quote:
Clearly I picked the WRONG venue to come out with this one
Perhaps. The community here in general fights shy of custom coding.
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Old 1st September 2013, 10:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

PGPK:

Suppose I came to you and said:

"PGPK, I want you to make me a massive, fabulous website. It's gonna be another social network, but the twist is that it's all centered around stamp collecting. Because stamp collecting isn't a hobby, it's life-choice, and, by God, the stamp collecting community needs it's own social network.

Now, PGPK, the reason I picked YOU to make my website is because I've seen your visuals and layouts and they're fabulous. I want my new uber giant website to have YOUR look and feel to it.

But, functionally, it'll have to be VERY powerful. There will be all sorts of data in databases that we will have to collate and display, classifieds, personality profiles calculated from taste in stamps, dating matchmaking cross-correlated by how many miles apart our members are, constant, realtime location tracking, the works. Why, we'll have to make Facebook look like amateurs with our metrics.

So it's gotta be gorgeous AND be driven by VERY sophisticated software."

Will you be able to do THAT for me, PGPK? I mean, since it's ONLY about the visuals? Functionality never enters into it?

Gonna do all that with just your color wheels and some CSS, are you?

In my stupidity, I assumed you'd welcome being able to largely separate the "design" and the "visuals" from all those grubby programmers, tasteless as they are, but evidently you have NO need. You can do it ALL with design and visuals.

I am SO done. Why did I not see this coming?
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Old 1st September 2013, 11:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

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Originally Posted by Martin Taylor View Post
Well, it's certainly not the message I picked up. Results aren't necessarily "better" because of the method of production. It's all about fitness for purpose, and efficiency for the producer. Hey, maybe having a bit of fun along the way, too.
Ditto to all of the above.

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