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Old 1st September 2013, 11:23 AM   #21
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGPK View Post
A website is all about "design" and "visuals" and all the "coding" in the world won't make the viewer any more impressed.
I absolutely agree that a viewer won't be impressed by coding. Nor should they be. But a website is actually all about user experience, and design and visuals are only part of that. It's the combination of functionality and design that matters, and the mix required depends entirely on the context.

Edit - I could give CP as an example of the mix being wrong ...
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Old 1st September 2013, 12:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

It's Sunday morning, well actually it's just past noon.

A day of peace,
Man Utd will get beaten, as will Arsenal, and
all will be right with the world by evening...

I totally agree with you that such a site would need significant coding to function. And any site would most likely need coding and design to be a success. Granted!

You do have significant experience of the type that few on this forum would have, and I did read all that you posted, but can I suggest:

Please dumb it down a little, as not many will understand all that you posted, I didn't.

Break it up into smaller chapters and explain it better, more detailed, more examples.. go on.. teach us, or even just teach me, please.

And please don't be upset. It isn't worth it, and it is only a forum. You do have the knowledge we'd all love to learn about a bit more, and possibly a lot more.

I've always been impressed by how little javascript you need to do stuff, but remembering it has always been the problem for me.

So, go on, please start again. I'm listening.
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Old 1st September 2013, 02:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Hi......i think to be fair most people who purchase Webplus from Serif myself included have it to create a simple website with absolutely no coding or programming experience. The basis of WYSIWYG suits most people here and furnishes their needs. I think it's great to have people llike yourself help and try to improve the process of the website constuction in various ways but maybe there is only a limited amount of users on this forum that fully understand your methods and processes mentioned.
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Old 1st September 2013, 04:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Diphenhydramine,

I'm a matter of a fact type of guy. To the point and all that. I was thoroughly impressed with what I read in the original 2 posts. Way above my abilities on a bunch of stuff. But that doesn't mean I don't want to read it. I have a large project mulling around waiting for some money to come in to start it.

Seeing examples of what was described would go a long way to understanding the complexities involved.

The most important part of your original post was that there is someone out there that can do the most complex projects. Most will never use this information but if a few use it great, but what about someone like me? I could hire someone with your abilities to do what I can't. I could design and build the front end using WP X6 and leave the technical stuff to the guys that know what their doing.
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Old 15th September 2013, 08:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

I'm sorry this post is running long but I'm trying to clear up the confusion, and there's a lot of confusion to clear up.

Firstly, I'm sorry, mia culpa. I should never have posted this information here. In my own defense it did not become so abundantly clear that this was a mistake until I had already done it; it really did seem like a good idea at the time.

If I may be permitted an analogy.

As an engineer, I would never, EVER buy a car if I could buy a vehicle that was a combination car-submarine-airplane for very-little-more money, ESPECIALLY if it did all those things really, really well. The fact that such a vehicle doesn't exist is yet ANOTHER example of how the real world is simply failing to live up to even the most reasonable expectations.

And what if I came up with a very economical way to add bolt-on submarine and airplane functionality to your pre-existing cars? It's really cheap, it works really well, and it's not even a permanent change. Most of the time you can leave it folded up in your garage and only trundle it out when you need it and it only takes 5 minutes to clamp on.

And when I presented it here, everybody wanted me to demonstrate, say, how well the submarine drove down the road. Everyone here is only accustomed to driving, to the point that adding on additional functionality was mostly incomprehensible. I wasn't trying to change anything; I was trying to add something new.

Well, around here, everyone is exclusively obsessed with the APPEARANCE of their websites. Oh, the subjects of a coherent website structure and content do occasionally come up, but only as an afterthought because let's face it, if the appearance isn't dropdead gorgeous, nobody gets around to the structure and the content when they visit the website.

So, around here, the discussion is appearance appearance appearance. All appearance all the time. In fact, if you aren't discussing appearance, why are you here?

And into this context and mindset I cheerfully popped up wanting to discuss, of all things, FUNCTIONALITY. And everybody wanted to see a demonstration of a submarine driving down the road.

In no way am I putting down or minimizing the importance of appearance. Everyone around here is obsessed with appearance because it's appearance that makes or breaks them in terms of their success in creating websites. And, absolutely, positively, I was offering absolutely NOTHING to improve the appearance of any website. So I shouldn't have posted here.

Again, in my own defense, it is very difficult to know where to post a cognitive breakthrough. If I had posted this on a website of some engineering tool, the confusion would have been just as great. Trying to bring up something new inevitably involves not only taking the road less traveled, but sometimes going off the path altogether to explore what benefit there may be in trying something new. Most new things are a waste of time, but all great strides forward come from something new; this dichotomy is something that people with open minds well understand.

But I did think there would be at least a COUPLE of people who might be interested in bolting on some functionality to their ALREADY-gorgeous websites. After all, even Serif offers Smart Objects to WebPlus users, and that is essentially imbuing some functionality into a WebPlus website, is it not? But with Smart Objects, what sort of functionality you can bolt on is very, very limited to only the set of applications directly supported by some Smart Object or other. My method is a way to roll your own functionality and add it to a WebPlus site with astonishingly little pain.

NO ONE would EVER use what I was describing to attempt to create or enhance ANYTHING having to do with the APPEARANCE of a website. That would be the very epitome of introducing useless complexity that contributed nothing. Using dynamic creation tools to generate static output would be... I don't know what... some brand of insanity. Certainly no engineer would suggest such a thing.

But if any of your clients ever want some functionality added to their websites that isn't covered by Smart Objects, you're kind of stuck with WebPlus by itself. You have to decline the contract. But using the technique I described you can easily bring on a PHP/database programmer (if you lack the programming skills yourself) to very quickly produce the code you need (as compared to writing it by hand...) while at the same time keeping said programmer very neatly confined to a little box while you continue to control absolutely every aspect of the appearance, structure and layout of your website in WebPlus, just as you always have. From a functionality standpoint, I would think that would be a sort of dream-come-true.

Admittedly, for everybody around here, what I'm describing is probably something you almost never want to do. Wouldn't it be nice to know you have it in the garage if you ever did? If you understand and appreciate the value of Smart Objects, then you should understand and appreciate this. It means you get to primarily keep using the same tool you already know, you only have to introduce the overhead in circumstances where you really need it, the divisionary line between appearance and code is practically made out of concrete which is what you want, the designers and programmers can work almost completely independently with well-defined contact points, and so on. That's pretty magical.

Looking at the subject as an engineer, I think this is extremely useful to us as well. A lot of us, like me, have wonderful engineering skills but our websites always look like what they are: what you get when you send an engineer off an art class. Now I can buy the artsy fartsy types off-the-shelf and vice versa. And I don't have to buy a $50/month package 2 times over from Adobe to do it.

God I hope this clears the issue up. I erroneously introduced a radical functionality concept into an appearance-only context, and without a satisfactory introduction into the change of mind space. For the most part, there are VERY, VERY FEW tools that offer the ability for art and engineering to connect in a healthy and productive and all but entirely painless way. Even in this thread there was actual HOSTILITY toward programmers, and if that isn't proof of this reality I don't know what is.

For those that can grasp what I'm pushing here, this is kind of a wonderful thing. The designers get to be freed from all the fiddly engineering folderol and the engineers get to be freed from all the appearance silliness, and everybody gets to do their job with wonderful tools that work together cleanly and beautifully like peanut butter and chocolate.

That should be a good thing.
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Old 15th September 2013, 08:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Hmm. A good many posts on this forum are exactly asking for the type of help you defined as functionality'. Many users of W+ (myself included) have come to realise that the program alone has limitations viz-a-viz functionality. There are many contributors to the forum that have helped new and experienced users alike to insert functionality into their sites with coding hints &etc.

Your blanket statement that users of WebPlus and users of this forum are only concerned, even obsessed with, 'appearance' is just plain wrong......

Please don't interpret the above as an 'attack' or 'hostility' - I have read your posts thoroughly without any great understanding for the most part but that does not prevent me from appreciating your obvious passion, professionalism and expertise.
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Last edited by mindsigh; 15th September 2013 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 15th September 2013, 09:21 PM   #27
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

You need to bear in mind that most of the users here are not power users or heavy duty developers. They design sites rather than develop them.

Most will not have understood much of your initial posts and will not be familiar with most of the technical side . To that end they like to see what is being described.

Some here post many items and examples of web sites with functionality coded in.

Here are a few of mine:

http://theferret.atwebpages.com/

http://theferret.atwebpages.com/wpgadget/

http://theferret.atwebpages.com/stairway-2-heaven/

http://theferret.atwebpages.com/wpcalendar/
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Greetings Diphenhydramine (aka Benadryl/Nytol )

I know am late joining this party - but after reading all the posts I realised that two words had not been used together anywhere in this thread. THANK YOU! Thank you for taking the time and effort to introduce and explain a complex subject - and yes I really did read it all.

While I appreciate that many visit this forum to get help with the functional problems they encounter with WP, some of us come with a wider agenda. I will not pretend I understood all your information but it did give some fundamental ideas on how to conjoin two apparently disparate subjects - website design and website function. And that, surely was the intent of the post in the first place.

I am a WP man and struggle to get round some problems that I am sure PHP/MySQL would solve in a rush - if I knew PHP/MySQL. I end up paying the likes of PHPJabbers to solve that problem for me and then drop the solution into an iframe - how much more satisfying and useful it would be if I could do-it-myself. So it's interesting to find someone who has come up with a solution for those who want to spend the time and effort making it happen themselves.

Try writing a website for a car sales company or estate agent with customer front end management in WP. It's not going to happen - at least not in my knowledge. But for PHP/MySQL that's a breeze. And then you build the pretty stuff around the data with WP. Job done!

I for one will actively pursue your ideas of WP/PHP interactivity - it's just what I've been looking for!

And once again.....Thank You!

Dick W
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:11 PM   #29
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Thumbs up Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickw View Post
Greetings Diphenhydramine (aka Benadryl/Nytol )

I know am late joining this party - but after reading all the posts I realised that two words had not been used together anywhere in this thread. THANK YOU! Thank you for taking the time and effort to introduce and explain a complex subject - and yes I really did read it all.

While I appreciate that many visit this forum to get help with the functional problems they encounter with WP, some of us come with a wider agenda. I will not pretend I understood all your information but it did give some fundamental ideas on how to conjoin two apparently disparate subjects - website design and website function. And that, surely was the intent of the post in the first place.

I am a WP man and struggle to get round some problems that I am sure PHP/MySQL would solve in a rush - if I knew PHP/MySQL. I end up paying the likes of PHPJabbers to solve that problem for me and then drop the solution into an iframe - how much more satisfying and useful it would be if I could do-it-myself. So it's interesting to find someone who has come up with a solution for those who want to spend the time and effort making it happen themselves.

Try writing a website for a car sales company or estate agent with customer front end management in WP. It's not going to happen - at least not in my knowledge. But for PHP/MySQL that's a breeze. And then you build the pretty stuff around the data with WP. Job done!

I for one will actively pursue your ideas of WP/PHP interactivity - it's just what I've been looking for!

And once again.....Thank You!

Dick W
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:14 PM   #30
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickw View Post
Greetings Diphenhydramine (aka Benadryl/Nytol )

I know am late joining this party - but after reading all the posts I realised that two words had not been used together anywhere in this thread. THANK YOU! Thank you for taking the time and effort to introduce and explain a complex subject - and yes I really did read it all.

While I appreciate that many visit this forum to get help with the functional problems they encounter with WP, some of us come with a wider agenda. I will not pretend I understood all your information but it did give some fundamental ideas on how to conjoin two apparently disparate subjects - website design and website function. And that, surely was the intent of the post in the first place.

I am a WP man and struggle to get round some problems that I am sure PHP/MySQL would solve in a rush - if I knew PHP/MySQL. I end up paying the likes of PHPJabbers to solve that problem for me and then drop the solution into an iframe - how much more satisfying and useful it would be if I could do-it-myself. So it's interesting to find someone who has come up with a solution for those who want to spend the time and effort making it happen themselves.

Try writing a website for a car sales company or estate agent with customer front end management in WP. It's not going to happen - at least not in my knowledge. But for PHP/MySQL that's a breeze. And then you build the pretty stuff around the data with WP. Job done!

I for one will actively pursue your ideas of WP/PHP interactivity - it's just what I've been looking for!

And once again.....Thank You!

Dick W
and ditto here, too.

Like you, I read the whole posts and more than once. And, appreciate the spirit with which it was provided.

DickW... did you know that there are several regular forum participants that also write PhP? Next time you need some code, consider asking here and see what you get. You won't hear from me, however.
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:14 PM   #31
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

mindsigh:

Quote:
Your blanket statement that users of WebPlus and users of this forum are only concerned, even obsessed with, 'appearance' is just plain wrong......
WebPlus has, from what I understand, many, many tens of thousands of users at least, spread over the entire globe. This being the case, if one wants to get technical about it, there are probably precious few blanket statements that are going to apply 100% of the time. But I bet there is LOTS of statements that apply 99.99% of the time.

So, for the purposes of convenience, I'll stand behind my blanket statement as statistically adequate for my purposes if not technically perfect.

Quoting PGPK here:

Quote:
A website is all about "design" and "visuals" and all the "coding" in the world won't make the viewer any more impressed.
So I'm pretty happy with my blanket statement even if I have missed the 10 people on the planet to whom it does not apply. And I'm more disappointed about it than you are.

If you happen to be one of those 10 people, then rejoice! My approach may very possibly apply to you.
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:28 PM   #32
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickw View Post
I end up paying the likes of PHPJabbers to solve that problem for me and then drop the solution into an iframe
Don't pay them, pay me and I'll drop it straight into W+ panels and text boxes for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickw View Post
Try writing a website for a car sales company or estate agent with customer front end management in WP.
Done both.

Integrating PHP/MySQL into W+ really isn't that difficult. The hurdle that most see id the fixed, absolute positioning. However that can be quite easily overcome either by a dab of clever scripting, and basic arithmetic, or using JQuery to rewrite the inline styling (a la W+Gadget).

In some ways the predictability of the absolute positioning can make it easier as you have some idea of what you are going to get.
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:32 PM   #33
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

dickw & mindsigh:

Both of you are most welcome. I would be more than happy to spend whatever time it takes to explain the details of what you need to do to make this work in some appropriate private venue, including simply on the telephone. There will, of course, be no charge.

Again, permit me to remind you that the programming aspect comes from a direct CONCEPTUAL lineage of Delphi or Visual Basic. Everything is mostly pointy clicky draggy droppy. It would be disingenuous to claim that you can use this solution without knowing how to program to some extent, but a basic understanding of programming concepts, knowing how to look up PHP calls online, and the IDE itself does much of the work FOR you.

The book on the tool (that I referenced in the original post) does a pretty good job of bringing you up to speed, especially when you remember that only a small part of the tool will be the one that you use in conjunction with WebPlus. There's a lot of stuff the tool does that we don't use.

I will repeat my demonstration offer. If you would like to get an idea of how this works, one of you can doctor up a couple of webpages in WebPlus (after 10 or 15 minutes of discussion with me), and if you send me the WPP file with all the resources embedded in it, I will add in the functionality and post it online. I can do the code walk-through with you and you can see what's involved. If you understand basic coding at all, you shouldn't have too much trouble with this. As in Delphi and Visual Basic, the vast majority of it is done for you and you only write the naughty bits that directly pertain to your code functionality.

There is a heavy focus in this solution with separating visuals and code. Even if you don't understand the code (which shouldn't be the case, actually) you will more then be able to understand exactly what the divisionary line is between visuals and code and thereby easily understand what it would take to work with a programmer with you as project manager. Any PHP programmer should consider this approach a walk in the park.

The coding aspect alone is also extremely easy to do; perhaps the most straightforward coding I have ever done.

Best regards.
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Old 15th September 2013, 11:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

This is one I was quite pleased with:

http://theferret.atwebpages.com/make-a-page/

Allows you to create a new site page "on-the-fly" right in the browser window.

Just click on the Make a Page link in the header area and hve a go.

Was working on a new version with more features amd some safeguards when my eyes started playing up.

Now the hosts server seems to have developed Alzheimer's and keeps forgetting all the CPanel passwords.
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Old 24th September 2013, 05:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

As an individual seeking instruction on how to use Webplus to create PHP & MySQL based dynamic web pages I found your posting extremely helpful.

Thank you for doing it. I would like to see, Part 2.

Roger
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Old 25th September 2013, 10:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Recipe for WYSIWYG PHP and MySQL Web Application Programming with WebPlus, Part 1

So....

Dontcha love a happy ending? I know I do.

Embarcadero has recently decided to re-position HTML5 Builder in the market place from a very inexpensive yet stunningly powerful horizontal market development tool to...

a very EXPENSIVE yet stunningly powerful vertical niche market development tool.

What WAS $299 is now between $2500 to $3000 as part of an admittedly very capable development "platform", though FAR too expensive for anyone around here to want to buy. Including me.

Which, as far as I can tell around HERE, is no big loss. It garnered about as much penetration as a butterfly slingshot against a WWII concrete bunker.

And so, in reference to literally everything that has previously transpired on this thread from the absolute beginning, as Gilda Radner would certainly say:

Oh.

Never mind.

S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wznjAhZ0eWc
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